Hey everybody, this is Daniel Patrick. This is episode number 321 of the Mandolins and Beer podcast, brought to you in part by my favorite website, the Mandolin Cafe. Don't forget, you can support this podcast by sharing it with your friends, leaving reviews, signing up for my email list, going to my Instagram and following me on Instagram, or buying some merch. Got the new MTV-style shirts. Or join my Patreon for less than $1 a day, $2 a day. You can support this podcast, and it really does help out. And thank you everybody who has signed up so far. I truly, truly appreciate it. Hope everybody's doing good this week. Just a reminder, the Mountain Grass Unit album is out today. And then next week, my guest Joe K. Walsh, his band Mr. Sun, they have a brand new album coming out, and that's on again September 4th. And that'll also be Bandcamp Friday, so they get all the proceeds if you pick that album up. So you can go and probably preorder it now. I'll have a link below. Other than that, I hope everybody's been having a wonderful week. I appreciate it. I had a couple people reach out and let me know some tips on what to do with this pinched nerve in my neck and shoulder, and it's gotten much better. It's still a little weird, but I'm not hopped up on muscle relaxers like I was last week. So let's get into this episode. A reminder, Labor Day weekend is next week, and so there'll be no episode. Again, the purpose of that is the numbers seem to go down over the holiday weekends 'cause people are doing other things with friends, family, whatever. And I want all the people who are on the podcast to get as many listens as possible. So it's just easier to, to take the week off that way. So, uh, so enjoy your Labor Day weekend, uh, and let's get into the sponsors real quick. Peghead Nation, with Peghead Nation streaming video courses in mandolin, guitar, banjo, fiddle, dobro, ukulele, and bass. 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But if you don't see a shape or size that is on the website that you like to use, you can reach out to them, and I'm pretty sure they can make it for you. I've had David make me some wacky things, and they're always awesome. They can put your name on it, they can drill holes in it, they can do it all. toneslabs.com. Get yourself a slab of tone. Tell them Daniel Patrick sent you. StringJoy strings, I love the StringJoy strings. As a matter of fact, I've got the owner, the guy who came up with the StringJoy brand for the episode next week, and it's just a fascinating story. It's amazing, the process of how he started his own string company. And so I always talk about how I use the Foxwoods, they don't sound or feel like any wound string or coated string I've ever used, and he tells the story about that next week. But if you'd like to try your set of strings before next week, Go to stringjoy.com and use the promo code mandolinbeer, all one word, at checkout, and you get 10% off your first order. Dedicated to building for the impassioned player. Pava Mandolins in Austin, Texas. And Elderly Instruments. Elderly Instruments is your trusted source for new, used, vintage, and fretted and stringed instruments. For the experienced to beginner player, their vast selection of mandolins, guitars, banjos, ukuleles, and did I say mandolins? Includes all of the accessories and books to go with them. All instruments are inspected and set up for easy playability, and their down-to-earth and knowledgeable staff are there to help. They're also award-winning. Now in their 54th year, they're family-owned and operated. They ship worldwide and you can visit them anytime at elderly.com. All right. Thank you so much for tuning in once again. I truly appreciate it. My guest, Joe K. Walsh, just one of my favorite people. And we have a great Beavis and Butt-Head moment in here, I feel, as well. I'm gonna try to clip it and put it on Instagram. But yeah, Joe's the best. Mr. Sun's new album, September 4th. Uh, it's, it's incredible, as you would expect. So let's get into this episode and have a fantastic week and next week. Be safe on Labor Day weekend. Be, I guess, be safe always. And cheers, everybody. All right. That giggle that you hear coming in there right now is one of my favorite people, one of my favorite players, and one of my, one of my first guests on this podcast. I'm so happy to welcome back Joe K. Walsh to the podcast. How's it going, Joe?

Oh man. It's going great. Thank you so much. I appreciate anytime you're willing to make a little time for me.

Oh, of course.

I love what you do.

Oh, thanks, man. Well, I love what you do. We were just talking about that. Mr. Sun has a brand new album out called The Idea Guys, which the album cover, the minute I saw it, was just brilliant. This is a great album cover. But I was telling you right before I hit record, I'm like, you know, I have such an expectation now of Mr. Sun because you guys are such an amazing band. And, you know, I always know it's going to be great. And then once again, I'm just blown away by the album and like, they did it. You guys did it again. You made another incredible album I want to listen to immediately after listening to it the first time.

Oh man, I appreciate hearing that. I, I, you know, we never really know it at this point. We're kind of just sort of, uh, committing to being ourselves, uh, and, and it's— you never know if people are going to respond to that, but, uh, that's where we're at in life.

Yeah. And you had, you had a great, had a great example. I'm like, oh, I need to hit record here. And, um, you know, because the album, like you said, you have to kind of be yourself, and you likened it to being in a relationship and like telling a lie, not being yourself, you know?

Well, I think there's parallels. Like in music, you can try and imagine what somebody else wants to hear, and there's been phases of my musical life where that's what I've done. And well, I think this person in this setting wants, you know, a bluegrassier version of this one, presuming this. But like, it gets a lot easier when you commit to your own taste. And yeah, sometimes I think of it as parallel to like If you're telling lies in a relationship and then you have to remember all the lie, you have to remember all, all the things you told. And, and, and then it gets a lot easier if you just don't tell a lie and if you are just yourself. And that's what I— that feels like that musically, you know. If you're just like, well, I like this, I don't like this, I don't want to do that, I like— I'd like to do that, it's a lot easier to embrace that role when that's your approach.

This answer obviously cannot be the same for everybody, but how does Joe find how to be comfortable with himself as a player?

Well, uh, that's a, that's a good question.

I—

and it took, it took a little while. I mean, like, for example, when I joined the Gibson Brothers, that was 18 years ago or 19, a while ago, and I just had this perception this is a really bluegrassy band. I gotta really, um, you know, leave some things on the table that I might use in another situation. And that was definitely my approach when I started with that band. And then once in a while I'd forget and, uh, I'd be a little bit more myself or make choices that I, you know, forgot that I wasn't supposed to make. And, and, and, you know, those guys would like look up and, and they get a reaction. And even with those dudes, like I was wrong. Like, they were just happy for me to be myself, and that certainly helps. And then, of course, if— I mean, that's like saying, like, somebody's validation helps you be yourself, and that's true. But also realizing that I don't need other people's validation is a pretty good way to get comfortable with being yourself.

Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, I think everybody— I guess I don't know anybody who probably wouldn't struggle with that, you know? I think I even see my wife struggle with that as a professor at college, being like, oh sure, you know, like, oh, okay, I have to, uh, and then eventually realize, no, I have to be me. Uh, this is, you know, that's right, you know.

And I'm saying it like it's one state or the other, and it's really like maybe you're in, in, in one feeling these 5 minutes or this hour, and then the next hour you have to remind yourself that's where you need to be. Uh, you know, it's not like you ever, uh, put to bed the the need for some external validation. That's— I don't think that's— it hasn't been my experience.

Yeah, same. It's interesting too, because I feel like this album— every time I listen to Mr. Sun, I feel like I'm on the cusp of being able to tell people what it sounds like, but I can't put words on it.

Man, we've made it hard on people. Like, I mean, it's not like we can describe it really. I mean, you know, obviously when you're on an airplane, somebody says, oh, what do you do? You got a mandolin? It's like, well, bluegrass, right? Right. Because they put somebody in the direction of what it is. But of course, it doesn't really— it's not a perfect description since there's a lot of stuff going on that wouldn't happen in your average bluegrass band.

Yeah. The one thing that is relentless, I find, in your music is the groove. And feel—

That's great, man. I love that so much because I feel like for so many phases of being a student or being a, um, you know, in love with the music, you, you might be focusing on other aspects. Like, you know, especially like as a student, you're like, what are the notes that I'm supposed to play? What's the— you know, but I think we so often forget how if it's not— if it doesn't have a good groove, you know, there's nothing there. Uh, and, and I, and I'm more and more appreciating that. I had a friend a couple years ago, Adam Larrabee, beautiful banjo player. Uh, he said, you know, bluegrass solo is really just a percussion solo. And, and I, my gut reaction was, man, you're so wrong. And then I thought about it for a while. I was like, wait, it really is about like how it feels first, and then of course the notes and motivic development. But the feel is so important, and if not the most important thing.

And all 4 of you have such, like, unique and strong personalities, and it, and it somehow works perfectly in this band, you know. Like, all 3 of you have your own projects— well, I should say 4, but I'm more familiar with the 3 of you, you know, Grant, Daryl, and yourself's projects, you know. So I've listened to so much of the 3 of you solo that it really is cool that you guys still sound like you guys each. but also like Mr. Sun. Yeah, that's like— it seems almost impossible to do to me, and you guys do it.

That's sort of like the important premise of that band is that everybody— we've allowed everybody space to, to, to be themselves. And, and I think that like, you know, a big turning point was where I let go of any definition or expectation of a, a definition of what was going to happen, you know what I mean? Like, uh, or like I've said this before in other contexts, but like when we first started playing, we would do a gig on, let's say, Friday, and we'd do the one song and, and man, it went great. Okay, that's how we're gonna do it, we figured it out. And man, it's so not the right expectation for that band because, uh, uh, it's about, you know, hearing and exploring and, and, and being in the moment. And, um, I had to detach from that expectation that that there would ever be a place where we really figured out a tune, because it's— and like the idea that there's one correct way to play a tune, that's a— that's not a healthy attitude for that band. It's like lots of correct ways, and let's figure out what it is today.

That would also rely on having to corral Darrell in, like—

Or Grant.

Or Grant, yeah, good point. Yeah, I remember seeing you— I still remember the first time I saw you guys live in Savannah. And you— he opened Blackbird with like the craziest intro ever. And like, I wish I could remember what he said exactly, but it was like, well, that was out there, like right in the middle of it. And it was, but it was awesome, you know? And I'm like, right, I love that excitement of music when you go and you see a show and it's not— I just saw a show recently where it was exactly— it was very regimented and very— I'm like, you knew there was going to be really not much variance. Maybe the solos are going to be slightly different, but it—

Sure.

I'm like, I'd rather see one that has a chance of fucking up falling off the rails, you know, that's more fun.

I like that. I, I think you and I might be in the minority in our American society with that.

No, I think so. I bet.

But I like that. I like that. I, I— for me, if I know what's going to happen in a piece of art, if it's a movie, if it's a book, but in this case, obviously with music, if I know what's going to happen, I, I'm really less engaged. And I— and the more it continues to happen, I find myself more disengaged. So, uh, You know, playing obviously with, with Daryl and Grant and Aidan, any one of them is gonna make a new choice at any moment that maybe never happened before and never happens again. And that's— it's not, it's not always like, uh, unfailingly positive, but it's a beautiful thing, and it leads to some really beautiful things. And, and the willingness to explore together is really the gift that that band is to each of us.

How do you, with that mindset in the band, Mr. Sun playing live, how much, you know, because sometimes when I'm playing, I'm trying to just get lost in the music. But in a band like Mr. Sun, you also have to watch for curveballs, I would imagine.

Yeah, I'm just getting lost, actually. I say that as a joke, but seriously, that's one of the things with that band is You know, if you're in the position to play with people who you, who you deeply respect and, and, uh, who are good at things that you're not good at, and that's a, you know, a great position of privilege, and I'm so grateful to be in that position. But playing with them, you know, there's things that they're good at that I'm bad at, and, and gradually you realize, man, I don't know what's going on. And, uh, and over the years, just having faith that I would figure it out and, and gradually it would be less like that. That has definitely been the case. It's like, I don't know, I, I just am appreciating the ability, the, the position I've been in where I'm around people who challenge me to grow as a musician, and the fact that that is a way to grow. And, and if you have people with patience around you.

Yeah. And also the fact that you guys still write— all of you are super accomplished musicians, and we, you know, talked about going off the rails or whatever. This whole album is just filled with beautiful melodies. That's— you guys write beautiful tunes too, and it's not like there's— I mean, there's technical parts, but it's not like technical to be like, oh, look what I can do. It's technical to be like, oh, look how beautiful you can make an odd time signature.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Does that make sense?

I've never been totally— for me, like, the whole concept of when things feel like what's being played here is chops, or what's being played here is something that's just difficult for difficult's sake, I really don't engage with that. Um, and obviously in bluegrass there's an expectation that you play fast, and that's— that sort of falls in that category. But I do find that fun as a, as a, as a, you know, setting the bar high and, and working on that. That's, that's a fun, positive aspect of my life. But like music that just transparently feels like, oh, this is hard, and that's what's being presented, I don't care very much for that.

Yeah, and it's tough to listen to, I think, a lot of it. I mean, even, even for people not in the minority. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, that's why a lot of, you know, hard jazz isn't being played on, you know, isn't filling stadiums like country music, you know what I mean? Because again, it's some of it, right? Well, they're all very talented. It can also be like it's a trying experience, you know, because like, all right, I get it, you're great. Everybody in the band is great.

Yeah, man, I feel it strongly. Like, music needs to be— I mean, this seems abundantly overly simple, but like needs to be enjoyable and accessible. And even when aspects of it make it maybe unfamiliar, hopefully there's some sort of rope that you're throwing out to your listener that invites them in. And I think with that band, sometimes it's the humor and maybe sometimes it's the melodies, but hopefully that's there.

Well, the album is so great and it didn't come with credits. So the one song though is— I ended up looking it up. It's the only song with vocals, right? The, uh, Shiva, right? Is that David Surratt? Is that a David Surratt song?

It's a David Surratt song. Um, and, you know, rest in peace, David Surratt. And, uh, for anybody who doesn't know him, he's a great mandolin player who, uh, lived in New England and specialized in— well, he actually did a lot of specialties. You know, he specialized in Irish music and New England music, New England tunes, and wrote songs and had a Grateful Dead duo with my longtime, uh, musical collaborator Steve Roy. And, uh, he passed away a couple years ago, and, and this is a song that, you know, knowing that, you said— you start to say, oh, this is David contemplating what comes next. It really struck me as a beautiful song.

Great song. Um, how did you guys choose that one to be the only vocal tune? Were there other vocal tunes on the—

you know?

Uh, I don't think there was a lot of candidates, actually. Uh, I don't know, things just I think I presumed that, you know, earlier in the career that we would be more purposeful in it. And a lot of times it just sort of seems to be, ah, here's what's available this season of life. And, you know, I didn't write as many tunes for this record. Just, I guess I put it, you know, probably I put them all into the last couple of records of mine. And so, and that was fine. Darryl was writing more tunes this time and Grant was as well. And, um, So it kind of just worked out, and I don't know, I, uh, I think just being open to like, this is where we're at and here's a snapshot of the band in this, you know, spring of 2025, that can be a positive thing. Even if it— again, it's sort of like detaching from an expectation of like, this is what needs to happen or this is what should be. This is just— this is what it is, and it's probably positive.

Yeah, and this song is just great.

It's a lovely song.

His lyrics are so well done. It makes me feel like I need to work harder on my lyrics. He's just got a way with words.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I don't write a lot of songs, but I will say having a kid made me feel that way too, where it— because I got this 2-year-old, she's amazing, and it's amazing to be with her. And then I find myself somewhere else on a Saturday night, and for me it's like, Well, I gotta really believe in the material if I'm gonna go away from my family on a Saturday.

And so I find myself raising the bar on what I'm willing to say yes to.

Sure. Yeah, that's great, man. Now, that's, again, that's like another major hurdle in life that you come to, a lot of people come to, and finding the way to do that is so rewarding.

Totally.

Yeah, totally. And like, it really kind of shines a light on Some things that are important, some things that, that used to feel important and are less so.

So the, uh, the, uh, first couple singles are out as well. So there's Road Mode. Which is, uh, I used that term. I was in Ireland and we used road mode all the time when we wouldn't eat breakfast and our wives would be like, aren't you guys hungry? We're like, road mode.

Yeah. That's— I think Grant, like, basically, like, there's home life and then there's road mode, or home, home mode. I'm not sure what the equivalent is, but yeah, basically he's being like, well, no, we're— we'll be in road mode next week.

And so that was one of Grant's tunes?

It's a Grant tune. And to me, it's, you know, it's such a beautiful example of what Grant does, you know, better than anybody, which is like taking the dog aesthetic And then updating it for these times. So, you know, starting with the David Grisman Quintet ideas and sort of approach and then having his own take on it. And to me, it's like, that's a great tune.

Yeah, he does a great— the songs that are Dog style that you guys do just in general are like, it's great because it doesn't seem like you're ripping off or trying to rip off Grisman. It's like these people have been influenced by dog music. I mean, Shoot Darryl was helping, you know, part of helping shape it, you know.

Sure. Yeah. And, and Grant did his 5 years in his— in, in David's band. So those guys come by that, that aesthetic, uh, you know, with a lot of homework and etc.

Yeah, it sounds— and it sounds more like, uh, it's, it's spiced with, uh, dog music and it's still your own song though, you know. It's such good stuff.

That's good.

That's good.

And then the other single, Invisible Present, is out.

And, and yeah, that's another Grant tune. So like I was saying, um, I had less tunes, uh, to throw into the mix this year. for that record that year. But luckily Grant had some beautiful stuff to contribute, and both those tunes I think really stand out. The Invisible Present, which is sort of like string band meets gospel music.

When Grant brings in songs, what's it like? How is it? I mean, it's probably different each one, but what does a Mr. Sun session kind of look like when Grant brings in, say, Let's say Invisible Presence, since we're talking about that. Is it already a pretty painted picture, or is it like, okay, let's make it Mr. Sun-ish?

Yeah, I think— I mean, there's different ways to approach this. I used to feel like when I would write a melody, I would not want to have made all the decisions before I brought it in to work with whomever I'm working with. And I still feel that way more than those guys do, where it's sort of like Well, here's some ingredients. Sort of like if Daryl and I went— and this happens all the time— like, go to the grocery store and we'll buy a bunch of ingredients, and then, what are we gonna do with this? And we'll collaborate there in the kitchen. I think with Daryl and Grant, they tend to have a more complete arc in mind, which also is a beautiful thing. Both of those guys write tunes with, like, multiple— more parts than a lot of people write, you know, and sort of— maybe an intro in mind and a little segue in the middle, that kind of thing. I mean, part of it is like, it's really illustrative. Like, if you want instrumental music to be concert music, if you look at what Bela Fleck or Mike Marshall or Dog or Darrell were doing, they were more ambitious compositionally and in terms of their arrangements. And I think if you have more parts in your composition, You got more options as an arranger, like, than if you're just playing an A-A-B-B tune. That's, uh, a little harder to, um, come up with a larger arc with, with a simple 2-part tune.

Um, does Aiden write as well? Does he bring— does he bring tunes to the thing as a, as a bass player, or does he just do just awesome bass parts?

You know, all the other previous records, he— I don't— maybe we just didn't ask him. I think we did, man.

I think we did.

And And finally, he was like, yeah, I wrote a tune for the band, which is great. And turns out he just hit it out of the park on the first one. He wrote that beautiful, really understated jazz ballad, My Sea. And, you know, I don't think any of the rest of us could have written that or predicted what he would write. But it's beautiful.

That was one that I was looking up, I think, to see, like, oh, who— who wrote this song and couldn't find anything on it. And I'm like, okay, this is somebody from the bands then. This is an awesome song.

Yeah, actually, everything except for the David Surratt song is all original.

What timing is Sloshin' in the Rain?

Let's see, I think it's in 5. I'm having a hard time picturing the melody right now, but I think that's a tune that's Yeah, it definitely is. But, you know, like, Daryl's pretty good at obfuscating, uh, you know, like, just like these things that don't make it really totally apparent where the, uh, subdivisions are. Like, I think that's one of the dangers of going into, like, playing in 5 or 7 is, like, to survive, you make patterns that, um, are understandable enough for someone who hasn't spent a bunch of time there, which That describes me. I haven't spent a bunch of time in odd meter stuff. Um, but I think Darryl and Grant and probably Aidan as well are really good at like saying, well, we're here, but we don't need to make it so, so abundantly explicit that you just can't ignore the odd meter stuff. I think it's nicer when it's subtler. And, and that's a Darryl tune. Darryl and Barbara Higbee, and maybe Mike Marshall was involved as well.

You had a, you had a song in, uh, one of your last— you have so many great albums now, I couldn't tell you which one it's off of. Maybe 2 albums ago though, maybe you had one in—

I don't know.

I think it was— anyway, I just remember we were talking about it and it doesn't— and you had the great saying of like, like, yeah, it's— I think maybe it was also 5/8, something along those lines. I'm like, but it doesn't feel like— and you're like, yeah, it's kind of— that's, that's, that's when you know it's working, is when you don't know it's in another time signature. You just hear the song, you know?

Yeah, you don't want to Like, again, it's like with stuff that's like hard, that's not the point. Like, if that feels like the point, then it doesn't feel like an engaging piece of music to me. I want it to hit me emotionally or move me with its beauty or crack me up. And none of those things describe odd meter necessarily, right?

Right, right.

It's like it just— it shouldn't be the main point. It should be serving the larger idea.

Have you guys already recorded another album? You guys are so prolific.

We are hard to wrangle, I'll tell you what. And we have, we have a, we have 5 albums worth of ideas, and I, and I love them, you know. Mr. Sun, so I, the first one was Mr. Sun Goes to the Moon, which is, you know, just stupid, but you start thinking, well, You know, there's a lot of, you know, I don't know if we would do Moon River, et cetera, et cetera.

You get that.

And then we started brainstorming Mr. Sun After Dark, which is, I don't know. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's cocktail lounge or maybe it's all night songs. But really the one that might be the most likely to happen is Mr. Sun Plays and Sings Bluegrass and there's, you know, quotation marks around every word.

I'm here for it.

Yeah, good.

I feel like, you know, there was that— there's like, um, obviously it's nice to have larger concepts, and it's also like, again, if you're willing to just like say, well, I'm gonna be myself in this context, then, then, um, then playing a bluegrass, you know, standard fare is gonna feel fresh because, uh, each of us has a unique voice, and it's not going to feel like, well, any other record that previously existed. So it's sort of— it's something we've been wanting to do for a while, sort of like I don't know if you're hip to those Miles records, Cookin' and Steamin' and Workin' and all that stuff, but it felt like amazing musicians who just are playing material that is familiar, and it doesn't have to be brand new or revolutionary. It's just them playing these tunes that are known. And I'm not saying we're Miles Davis by any means, but it's an inspiring idea to say, well, you don't have to have brand new material for it to feel fresh and worthwhile. And I think that's the idea with that record.

That's awesome. Yeah, it's all about perspective. You don't have to do, you know, play it like you would play it.

That's right.

I think that's kind of one of the things I found, like, when I start— started learning fiddle tunes and felt like the pressure of learning like a perfect version of a fiddle tune, and then realizing, listening to more and more versions of the same fiddle tune, that the ones I love the most are the ones that people kind of make it their own. And it's a little bit different than, you know, straight ahead. And I'm just— that's why I loved, like, learning fiddle tunes. That's what helped me, I should say, really fall in love with it, because I'd stress out about playing the perfect version. I'm thinking like, oh my God, there's 1,000 versions of this song and everybody's got their take on it.

Totally.

And I, I mean, for me, one thing that was freeing was like when I had this thought experiment was like, you know, take whomever you like— David Greer and Scott Nygaard and Brian Sutton or Courtney Hartman— if any one of them tried to sound the other, it would be a loss for humanity.

Right. Yeah.

Like, what a drag. Like, if Courtney Hartman was like, no, I think I need to try and play more like Brian Sutton, or you're like, well, no, what you're doing is beautiful, and it's— it would be a real shame if that didn't get offered up there and presented.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great— I've— yeah, that's— I've never thought of it that way. That's— yeah, that's perfect.

Yeah, I don't know. And it— I think for me, I was thinking about it with regards to Scofield and Frizzell, both of whom to me are really inspiring, and both of whom play within the set of what they're able to do. And what they're able to do is not be each other whatsoever. And they're just leaning into the thing that makes them themselves. And it's just, to me, it's a really healthy reminder. It's like, you're not supposed to be able to do everything, and just commit to and develop the thing that you do do.

Yeah.

Exactly. You just said doo-doo.

Doo-doo.

That's a poop joke.

Oh man. Oh, it's like Mandolin's Beavis and Butt-Head. Oh man, just said doo-doo.

Sorry.

That's funny. Your tone on this record is so good. What is it that you've been working on, on Mandolin? Because you always seem to be advancing. And again, you know, there's people who aspire to get to where you are. And, you know, I— one of the things I admire about you is your ability to keep advancing yourself, even as a great player from the first time I heard you.

Thanks, Daniel. Um, well, uh, I appreciate you. For me, like, it's— it— the best place for me to play musically is on a stage into the microphone that I am used to. And so That, that good— luckily for me, it's become a really comfortable place where I know how to play the way I want to. And then going into the studio, it's not always easy to replicate that. Um, and by that I mean like I want to play in a way where I'm not overdriving and, and I don't feel compelled to play physically harder. And like, um, I don't know if you've ever had the opportunity to see— you probably have— Sierra Hall play in an acoustic jam. And she's really inspiring to me in so many ways, but that particular aspect is like she knows how hard she wants to play and, and, and, and what level of, you know, physical challenge she thrives in. And what I mean is she doesn't play loudly. And there's been so many times in life where I'm like, oh, it's— this is a loud situation, I, I guess I, I not even consciously, I find myself playing harder to be audible. And, and that never works. It never sounds good to me, and it never serves the, like, the larger idea of, like, fluidity and and subtlety. Um, so I'm trying to be better at just like, uh, putting myself in situations where I know I'm gonna play the way I like to play.

I mean, part of that, I think, is having people who listen when you play as well.

Yes, 100%.

Yeah, I think it's important. It's like, I know, uh, that I like the way things sound when I don't, um, stiffen my right hand or feel like I need to really dig in. So I just try and be aware of situations like I don't like. Like, for example, there's plenty of bar gigs and, you know, that's good and you can learn things and it's good to try things out. But I don't like loud bar gigs because I find myself changing the way I play and I don't— it doesn't serve my larger goal.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I always ask for like even monitors to be quieter because it's going to— like, I always find if the monitors are loud, everybody plays loud.

Yeah.

So I'm like, you know what, if we have— I can hear the mains most of the time on, you know, gigs and just need a little bit of monitor. And, um, you know, I find if the monitors are too loud, then everybody plays loud, then everybody turns up if they're plugged into a preamp, you know what I mean? And they have their own— they have their own volume knob. And so then it just becomes a mash fest and not in a good way, you know? It's just like, it's just chaos and I want to hear music. So yeah, that's that. that's why I kind of feel like you just, you have your tone, and that's what's really awesome on this album. Like, it's immediately you to me when I hear this.

Awesome, I appreciate that. That was always inspiring, like, listening to Dog so many years. Like, man, that's, it's like just like a golden, you know, uh, target to aim for is like having something that's so recognizable. And, and just like with, I think with Dog, you're even like, the notes sound so nice Um, maybe it's not like it doesn't matter what he plays, but the notes sound so nice, it, it does a lot of heavy lifting there. It's a beautiful thing.

Anything else you've been listening to new that's been inspiring you?

Oh, that's a good question. Uh, well, more children's music, which is— I'm playing it. It's cool, man. There's some great records out there. Um, and, and, and I never thought I'd be excited about singing The Wheels on the Bus, 10 times a day. But, you know, it's, it's just beautiful seeing the little lady happy. So, you know, can't go wrong with that. And, uh, yeah, trying to figure out, uh, playing that on the mandolin around the house. So that's probably not the answer you expected, but that's the truth.

No, I believe it, man. I, um, one of my favorite songs to play— speaking of restaurant gigs, I have one every Sunday I've been doing for like 8 years here in Charleston. And my favorite is like, you know, it's a brunch, so it's early and all ages come. And whenever there's little kids, we do a ripping version of Old MacDonald Has a Farm.

Oh, man.

And dude, it's— it brings so much joy to every person, not just the kids, but everybody loves it. And I feel like it's like, oh, man, I remember just enjoying things. You know, it's like this weird sort of thing. I think it taps into in people of like the joy of children enjoying something helps them enjoy a few minutes, you know?

Totally. And like, I mean, to me, like, it's illustrative of like that balance we're all on. Like, um, like how much you— like, I don't really want to play Wagon Wheel every gig, and I think people would like it if you did, right?

Right.

I wouldn't.

Right.

But, but there's some, some choices on that spectrum where we— I'm fine with it. It's like, you know, it's nice to play things that people enjoy and they connect with. It's important.

Yeah, that's been a big one for me when people are like, uh, which— this is what this is, and this is what you want to hear, that it's going to cost us. I'm like, buddy, then write your own Wagon wheel. Nobody wants— you know what I'm saying? Like, just make the people happy. You're up here at a bar playing covers. Who cares? You know, that's become my theory. Who am I to, you know, who am I to crap on somebody because they like a song?

Well, that's right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I'm just glad they don't have TVs on the wall. I'll play whatever you want to hear. So yeah, that's, that's, I think it's a good perspective to have is just try to make people happy. And this, in this album, this album should make a lot of people happy. It's just, it's, it's beautiful and it's everything I expected and more, which is what I feel like Mr. Sun gives me every, every time.

Awesome. I appreciate hearing that.

And actually, I just listened to your, uh, your first album on my car ride to, um, to Nashville earlier this week. I revisited— I love that album. It's a good travel album for me.

Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate that.

Yeah, it's— yeah, it's good stuff. Uh, any, any new gear? You still, still playing your Gill?

I'm playing that. Um, yeah, no, no radical changes. Um, um, I, you know, as you know, um, there's quite a lot of good mandolin players around, um, Portland. Ethan's the T-1, and, um, Steve Roy's another one, and Noah Fishman, and there's others. Chris Moore, I think maybe you know him. But anyways, my point being I've been trying to make space for and jumpstart a small mandolin ensemble. So I actually have 2 mandocellos in my house right now, which— don't ask me why, because there's no reason why there should be. But I might have—

I might have the first recorded version of you on mandocello. You played it on—

That might be right, from your record, of course.

Yeah, that's right. So you had just gotten one, but now you have a second one.

Right, because everybody needs 2 mandocellos.

There's your new album title. Everyone needs just mandocello duets.

That's right. But you know, it's kind of cool though. It's kind of fun to explore, and it's definitely not overdone.

No, no. What's the, uh, what's— what are the mandocellos for? Um, I can't remember. Was it a Smart that you had, the first one?

That's Smart, and I bought a Brock, uh, recently. And it's great. Yeah, it's awesome. I don't know, I just— to me, like, uh, I've always liked the sound of the mandolin quartet, and, and, um, I'm kind of enjoying playing with these dudes around here. We do— we, we haven't done a lot, but, uh, it feels like something that's right there within reach. And, and, um, and, you know, like Noah and everybody's a beautiful arranger, and there's a lot of options on the table. So I'm hoping to jumpstart that. I have all these projects I'm starting, actually. I have a new bluegrass band. I have a new bluegrass band with Darryl. And then making a record with Matt Flinner next month. And so just feel like, like when I step back, I'm like, man, you're, you're really in like a creating and trying to instigate and generate phase of life, which was good. It's nice, you know, I— there used to be years where I would like look back and see people like, how come I'm not doing that gig? And it's like, well, you didn't send out the email or you didn't start the band or you didn't record the record and hire a videographer. So just shut up and do those things. And then that's the phase of life I'm in right now, just planting the seeds of projects that I'd like to, you know, develop and make more time for.

Yeah, that's— I'm excited that you're in that phase. You know, that's— it's a big thing when you, you know, I think it's a hard thing to realize. And this is coming from me who I, you know, sat back and did the same sort of thing for the longest time and be like, well, why isn't this happening for me? Or why is it? And I'm like, well, nobody's gonna do it for you. if you want to do it, you might want to take some initiative and start, you know, and start doing it. On the outside, people just assume everything's good in this guy's world, you know, and nobody's going to reach out necessarily. You got to go out there and do that. So yeah, it's good to hear from, from you.

Totally. I had to make myself a rule with Instagram, like, like some gig that, that somebody's doing and I'm not doing, and then, and then, and like, you know, for a little while it was like, Like the gut reaction was not positive. You're like, how come, how come, how come they didn't hire me, right? And there's— that's fine, but like, let's say I made myself ask, did you send the email? Did you have a press kit? Did you have a nice video? Do you have a band name? You know, all those things. If the answer is no, maybe that's why. Like, if you didn't reach out, you didn't send the email, uh, why don't you do that first, and then if it doesn't work out Okay, then maybe be negative.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I have the— I have like the super negative headspace too. I guess it's more lack of self-confidence, but like, like doing the booking thing always got me. Like, I'd be, you know, I could email a brewery that doesn't even have like a location except to make beer and ship it out. And I'd be like, oh, just have some music. And they'd be like, no, we don't do music. I'm like, they hate me.

They hate me.

They hate me. I suck.

You know?

Well, I'm done sending emails for a month.

That's right. Yeah, so like the other day we had this babysitter and she was telling me— and this is a crazy state of the world— but she told me she'd applied for 180 jobs this year, which, that's shocking, man. And, and I was like, man, I don't think I've applied for 180 jobs in my life altogether. And that's true, like, for jobs. But then you think about like trying to get gigs. Well, I've been rejected from thousands of gigs. You know, thousands. Yeah, yeah, which is all fine, man. It's all fine. That's just part of the gig. You just get used to it's not all going to be acceptance.

Yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow, but once you figure it out— well, buddy, let's just say congratulations on The Idea Guys. Uh, it comes out in a few weeks, September 4th.

Yeah, right, exactly.

It's just, it's Beautiful and brilliant. And if you're a fan of Mr. Sun, you know kind of what to expect. It's even better than what you expect, I'd say. And if you're not familiar with Mr. Sun, oh my gosh, you are in for luck because you guys have a bunch of great recordings that you're about to discover.

Yeah, awesome. Thank you, Daniel, and, and thanks for doing what you do. I, I love having, uh, uh, being able to tune into your interviews and podcasts as I'm driving down the road and, and I'm It's amazing to be able to learn, uh, as I'm, uh, making the commute to the next gig.

Oh man, I really appreciate that, Joe. Thank you. And thank you for being so generous. I mean, if it wasn't for people like you, especially early on, you know, I might not have a podcast. So thank you for taking the time. And especially, you know, every time you put out another incredible record, it's really— it's exciting for me and more importantly inspirational to me to talk to you. And, and, uh, yeah, I appreciate you.

Awesome, likewise.

All right, bud. Well, thanks, Joe.

Thanks for having me.

All right, thanks so much to Joe for doing the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Next week is Labor Day weekend, so there'll be no episode, but don't forget September 4th is when Mr. Sun's new album comes out, and that's also Bandcamp Friday. So it'd be a great time to head over to Bandcamp, pick up the new Mr. Sun, and pick up whoever else you feel like supporting that weekend. And, uh, don't forget Mountain Grass Unit's new album out today. Have a fantastic weekend and next weekend, holiday weekend. Cheers, everybody.