Hey everybody, this is Daniel Patrick and this is episode number 323 of the Mandolins and Beer podcast, brought to you in part by my favorite website, The Mandolin Cafe. How's everybody doing? I hope you are doing well. My guest this week is Ethan Bush from the band Arkansas. He was on once before. I'll have a link in the description to the earlier episodes so you can kind of get an idea of how he started in the mandolin world, but they've been out there for years now just tearing it up and Their new album Horizon Never Dies is just one of those albums where you hear all the work of a band really, really gel together. And I, I like their other recordings, but there's something about this one, and I think Ethan agrees, and we talk about that during this episode. But boy oh boy, just great songwriting. They have some guest musicians, and you're gonna hear all about it here. And I, I think you're gonna like the episode, and I think you're gonna love the album. So again, be sure to check that out. I'll have all the links In the description where you can find all the Arkansas stuff. I hope everybody is doing well. I'm gonna jump right into the sponsors here. I have to go do a load-in here in in just a little bit. In the midst of busy, busy gig week, so nice, nice to be busy. That's for sure. So Peghead Nation with Peghead Nation streaming video courses and mandolin, guitar, banjo, fiddle, dobro, ukulele, and bass. You learn bluegrass, old time, and other styles from some of the most talented players. Instructors in Roots Music. PegheadNation.com features a great lineup of mandolin instructors like Sharon Gilchrist, Joe K. Walsh, Mike Compton, John Reichman, Aaron Weinstein, Marla Fiebes, Chad Manning, Ian Currie, Ethan Satyawan. Courses include high-quality multi-angle video lessons, downloadable notation and tab, play-along tracks, and plenty of tunes and songs to play. And the best part, of course, is you can join Peghead Nation, any of their video courses now, and you get your first month for free. Just go to pegheadnation.com and use that promo code mandolinbeer, all one word, at checkout. Northfield Mandolins— let's build more than a mandolin together. Check out their website at northfieldmandolins.com or download their app at mandosummit.app for lots of special performance recordings, demonstrations, and special workshops. Tone Slabs— they got a big surprise coming. I do not know what it is, but I am very excited to find out. However, I am absolutely loving the picks that I am using right now, and I think you will too. Go to their website, they have all the shapes, sizes, and anything else you could imagine. And if they don't have what you're looking for, I'm pretty sure they can make it. They can drill holes in it, they can put your name on it, they can put logos on it, they can do it all in their slabatory. Go to toneslabs.com and tell them Daniel Patrick sent ya. Ellis Mandolins, handcrafted mandolins designed and built in Austin, Texas. And Elderly Instruments. Elderly Instruments is your trusted source for the new, used, and vintage fretted and stringed instruments for the experienced to the beginner player. Their vast selection of mandolins, guitars, banjos, ukuleles— and did I say mandolins?— includes all of the accessories and books to go with them. All instruments are inspected and set up for easy playability, and their down-to-earth and knowledgeable staff are there to help. In their 54th year now, they're family-owned and operated, they're award-winning, they ship worldwide, and you can visit them anytime at elderly.com. All right, let's get into this episode. with Ethan. Hey, just a reminder, you could support this podcast by just sharing it with your friends, by giving it a review on Apple Podcasts chart, by buying some merch at mandolinsandbeer.com, or by joining my Patreon for as little as $2 a month. That's it, $2 a month. You can support this podcast. All right, have a fantastic week. Cheers, everybody. Looks like I'm walking myself home tonight. I strolled on by. All right, my next guest, he's been on once before, and I'm glad to have him back on. His band Arkansas has an incredible new album called Horizon Never Dies. Welcome back, Ethan Bush. How's it going, Ethan?

It's going great, Daniel. Thanks for having me back, man. I appreciate it.

No, man, thanks for— thanks for wanting to come back. I appreciate you.

Well, I think we did this for the first time maybe 3 years ago, maybe 4. Yeah, but I've gotten more— I've run into more people who have brought up that, that interview, um, more than any other thing I've ever done. No, like any other Yeah, any other, any other one show or any other one festival or any other radio thing we've done, or I'll be at festivals all the time and people will, um, bring it up to me, usually mandolin players obviously. But I think it's just, just a testament to what you've, uh, what you've grown, which is really cool.

Yeah, it's amazing. Thanks for telling me that. I, um, yeah, it's funny, I had, uh, Alan Bybee on a little while back. He did a tribute to Herschel Sizemore, and I've known Alan for since like 2019. Um, kind of like, you know, on a good texting friendly basis. And, uh, he texted me a few, like maybe a month and a half ago. He's like, buddy, I just played in Dallas and we had 20 people tell me they heard me on the podcast. I'd be in an elevator and somebody would be like— and so it's so funny cuz like, I don't really, I don't really pay any attention to like the numbers. I'm just happy to talk to mandolin players. You know what I mean? I'm not like, oh, I have to have so-and-so on so I can get numbers. I don't care about like, I just wanna talk to cool players.

Yeah, I was, I was surprised too sometimes at who would bring it up. I don't know what— I guess I have a preconceived notion of who I picture listening to the podcast, you know what I mean?

I do.

And sometimes it would be a different, a different kind of festivalgoer that I would not expect, you know what I mean, uh, that would bring it up and clearly listened, uh, carefully, you know what I mean? Bringing up stuff that I didn't even remember I had talked about from the middle of it, you know?

Yeah.

Oh, that's amazing, man.

I'm glad hear that. And I'm glad that, that, uh, people are, are reaching out to and going to shows still. I mean, that's the, uh, that's the other thing right now, you know. If it's not one thing, it's another, it seems like, in this business. And attendance at shows is, you know, seems to be the new hot button of stuff.

So yeah, it's tough, man. I feel like we've, we've been pretty lucky. We feel that here and there, but we're still, you know, we're still growing quite a bit. And it's not uncommon for us to play a market we've never played before still. So we're used to like still starting low and working our way up, you know. But I definitely feel like I'm hearing more from more established musicians that they're running into it in places where they've historically done better, you know. And I don't really know. It's hard to— it's— I feel like, you know, I have a lot, probably a lot more responsibilities just with my home life than last time I talked to you. So I definitely feel the— the crunch and the squeeze more, you know. Uh, and I just, uh, I don't know, I guess I assume, I assume it's that, and I totally understand. But boy, that is a scary side of it sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine. I just saw somebody posted a picture from the band Lettuce. I don't know if you're familiar with them or not. They're like a more of a jam band, I guess, than anything. But it was like 30 minutes before the show in this theater, and it was like, there's like 35 or 40 people here right now, you know, in this place that holds hundreds, you know. And it looks like somebody posted a picture later like, ah, it looks like it filled up, but it's just like, oh my gosh, you know, it's, you know, and I understand, dude, the economy is like, everything's way more expensive than it's ever been. Gas, you know, even just for people wanting to go out, but for bands touring to fill up the tank, oh my gosh.

Oh man, we can't quit talking about it in the van. Our guitar player Zach, yesterday we were driving, he was like filling with his phone, he was like, I just did the math and it's costing us $25 an hour to drive right now. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we drive this big, big diesel Sprinter that we love, but it is, uh, it's stinging right now for sure.

And diesel is even more expensive than just gas. Holy cow.

Oh yeah.

Well, you guys are in Nashville right now for Americana Fest, man. How's that going?

Um, it's going great. We just got here yesterday. We only had one gig for Americana Fest this year. We played, uh, last night at the Five Spot.

Oh, that's a great venue though.

Yeah, it is. I think I had it in my head— it's been a while since I've been there, I guess— and I had it in my head that it was smaller than what it was. It was a pretty good size for the— you know, things are so spread out for Americana Fest anyways. Um, and it was definitely packed, and I think that people were kind of waiting in line a little bit for the bathroom and the bar, but as a performer on stage Uh, as a performer on stage, it felt right, you know?

Yeah. Oh, that's great, man. Is this your first time at Americana Fest, or do you guys do it often?

We've done it once before. I think we did it not, not last year, but the year before we came. And, um, we've also done the IBMAs a couple, once or twice, and I kind of get all the experiences confused, you know?

Sure.

But, uh, but yeah, we've— last time we were here, we played a record label party during the day. And I'm embarrassed to say I can't remember what label it was for. But we were kind of playing at a weird transitional period where everyone was kind of moving from the record label parties during the day to the venues at night, you know? So we were kind of catching the very end of the day crowd and it was, everyone was sunburnt and ready to go reset for the night, you know? But last night felt kind of like prime time and we got we got to play right after Bronwyn and right before Fretliners. And we, we love all those musicians. So it was really fun.

Bronwyn's new band is stellar, huh?

Yeah, man. I liked her last album. But I also— I didn't walk away from it with it ringing in my ears necessarily. You know what I mean? I was like, I was like super impressed when I listened to it. But it didn't— I didn't really circle back on it, I don't think. And then I had the exact opposite experience with this album. I just listened to it like maybe a week ago on a long drive, and I was blown away with the songwriting and, uh, just, just the tastefulness of how everything was put together. And some, uh, it just felt really unique to me, but not in a, not in a crazy way, you know? I don't know. I don't know. It felt, it felt just right. I was really impressed and really happy to hear some of those songs live last night, for sure.

Nice. Well, you guys' new album Horizon Never Dies is killer. Man, and I, I was talking to you before this because I wanted to, I wanted to say it. For me, it felt like you guys found like another level. I want you to not be offended by that because I'm a fan of your music before that, but for whatever reason, this new album seems like, you know, like a band who just found some, like a new spark and was like, oh man, we gotta, you know, we got something here. So congratulations on that.

Thanks, man. I'm glad to hear you say that. We did, we definitely did things a lot differently, uh, and I think it, it really, it really showed up on the recording. We've, we've, for years we've been recording at the same place in our hometown, and we've kind of, after burning ourselves out on the first couple of albums, we, we started really spacing out our recordings. Like the, the previous album, Okay to Wonder, I think we recorded that over like almost a 12-month period, um, going in focusing on like 2 or 3 songs at a time, you know. And this time our, our manager, Tim Coughlin, he was really, really determined to get us to come record in Nashville just to kind of, you know, just— it just helps to grab people's attention in Nashville if they hear the record's been done here. You know, there's some layer of some side access connect for them, you know what I mean? So we went and recorded at Southern Ground. And, uh, it was just an awesome experience and, and the exact opposite of how we did it last time. It was like, okay, we've got 3 days, it is time to cram, you know?

Right. Nothing like a schedule though to make you be focused.

For sure. Yeah. And I think one thing that kind of helped with that too is, you know, there's just silver linings to every way you can do it. I think the last time around we were like, okay, we'll space these out so that we can really, really focus on how we want the songs to turn out. We can We can, you know, experiment with them and stuff and even, you know, road test them pretty hard. And, and that, that was great. But on the, on the flip side of that coin, it was nice to be in the studio with a schedule. We had, uh, um, our buddy Dan in there engineering and kind of in a, in a producing role for us as well. And he, and he did a great job in that role. And with the, with the time crunch, it was easier to kind of— You know, get into, well, maybe we should do it this way, maybe we should do it this way. And then Dan would chime in and say what he thought, and we'd be like, screw it, let's do that. We don't have time to be, you know. And I think it, I think it really— and it wasn't just like, oh well, let's do that because we don't have the time. Most of the time he brought something up, we were like, yeah, that's gonna make it feel a lot smoother, you know. But it just, uh, allowed us to kind of give up a little bit of our, a little bit of our Uh, free will on some of it in a way and just kind of surrender to what was gonna make us— make the process move along, you know. And I think it helped a lot. We've— our running times are, I think, way more digestible on this album, you know. We've got a lot more songs in the like 3.5 to 4 minute range. We've been notoriously kind of bad about that in the past.

We—

it's not uncommon for us to have one album that has 7 songs on it that are north of 5 and a half minutes.

Right, right. You know, one of the things I do like about that though with the shorter albums is like it makes you want to listen to it again, or at least it does for me. You know, when an album— because I'm used to, you know, longer albums too coming from the CD era when people are like, wow, you can put how much time on the CD? You know, so you're used to like 60-minute-plus albums, and then when you get one that's like 36, or in this instance I think it was like 42 or 45 minutes long, you're like, oh That's done already. I'll listen again, you know.

Exactly. Yeah, it helps, helps those streaming numbers, that's for sure.

Yeah, exactly. Um, what was it like working in this— I mean, I've, I haven't seen pictures of the studio that you used to, that you did your last few albums at, but I've definitely seen hundreds of pictures from Southern Ground, which is killer looking, you know. What was it like from switching studios for you guys?

Oh man, it was awesome. It was, it was, uh, and we— and, and that's not to throw any shade at our hometown studio. It's very professional in there. But it kind of has like a bit of a clinical feel to it in there, you know. Uh, and this, this place just had a different type of character to it. Um, and like you said, you've seen pictures, so you know, but for, for those that don't, it's, it's got a very— I think the building, either this— someone might have made this up, but I think it's true that it used to be a church back in the day. Um, and if it was not, it was designed to look that way for sure. Um, and it felt that way, just like a lot of exposed stone and timber. And all the, all the decor in there is just like super down-home Southern feeling, you know. And all the artwork, uh, it was really, really cool. And of course all the equipment is, is awesome, but it just had like a really comfortable feel to it, you know. I felt like I was at— I felt like I was at somebody's House almost. Someone who's much more successful and has a lot more money than me. But, you know, it definitely— it didn't feel— it didn't take long for us to, to feel comfortable there. And there's plenty of— there's just enough space in that studio, I felt like, where you can kind of separate if you need to get some work done or, you know, focus on a part. But you don't— you can't really disappear too bad. You still feel connected, you know. Um, and The guy we were working with, uh, uh, our manager and him kind of had a history. Um, our manager now handles a band called Sickert Hollow that this engineer used to play in. Um, so they kind of had a nice rapport, and it made it easy for us to build rapport with him really fast. He just had a really nice workflow. Um, And his, uh, his extra set of hands, Hank, was a real, was a real monster in the studio too. And they just, yeah, they just had, they just fostered the perfect environment of like, yeah, you guys are creative, this is awesome, we're gonna work any of these problems out, or we're gonna make all these songs better. And also, here's a path forward that's gonna get it, that's gonna get it done and keep you feeling confident about your time frame. You know, they just had a really nice light touch with that. Um, And that's not to say we weren't there till 6:30 in the morning the last night, because we were. And, and not, not in full panic mode, more like in full like screw it mode, you know. Let's just— we were down to like one of the last songs to finish that was kind of experimental, and it was like we had, we had all the, we had all the bells and whistles drug out by that time. We were all kind feeling a little bored, I guess, or I don't know what, but it made for some magic on the last one. That was fun.

Yeah, what track was that?

That was, uh, a song our banjo player wrote called, uh, uh, an instrumental called Escape to Northern Mountain. Wrote all the percussion on it.

100% my guess. I, you know, I tried to listen to the album straight through first time, you know, just to like hear the whole album. But that one I had to— I just had to go back and listen to it because there was so much cool stuff. Like, I— it's like I found something new every listen, you know? I'm like, oh, wait a minute, is that— is that like a xylophone in there? You know, or like— right, it's a great tune.

Um, yeah, it was, uh, it was, uh, really fun to record. Adams was— Adams was on a Um, an Afrobeat kick for a while at home when he was practicing, um, listening to just, just a bunch of Afrobeat stuff on YouTube and playing along with his banjo. And I think that's what inspired that melody and the feel for that song. Uh, so that was really fun.

For a band like you that tours so— I mean, you guys are on the road a lot, it seems like, you know. I— or at least it seems to me. I see most of the time it's a big list of tour dates for you guys a lot, you know. Um, yeah, how do you guys find the time then to put this new album together?

Um, well, I don't know. We, we got kind of lucky, or I got kind of lucky with some of my songs. Um, in the tour in the summer of last year, uh, I had some that just kind of came together serendipitously to, to finish out my contribution to the album. I, uh, there was, there was one particular, um, Lift your voice.

We don't gotta go where the wind blows. I'll let the good days roll in on the breeze. What good is a message in a bottle, babe? When you Lift your voice and sing. Lift your voice and sing.

That I wrote the majority of— well, not the lyrics, but the majority of the tune in the back of the van. We were stuck on the interstate in New Mexico in like a whiteout blizzard at the end of— so I guess it was in the summer. the end of the previous winter, we had some really bad luck with the snow when we were out west. And it was about to be my turn to drive. And so I had just taken a 5-Hour Energy, you know, I was like all jazzed up. Well, then the switch never happened. So we just hit traffic. So then I was like, well, I gotta burn this caffeine high on something and got out the mandolin. And that song came really fast. I had, I had just— my wife and I just purchased a new home and—

Oh, congrats, man.

Thanks. Yeah. And another song came on the, like, one of the first nights where we were done moving. I could sit out on the porch and relax and reflect a little bit and had one of those sweet moments where a song comes out in like 30 minutes, you know.

What was that one?

That one was, uh, Shades of Blue. I can't remember a good thing everlasting long. If my soul is up for debate, what a trivial triumph you are. 'Cause faith won't let the weary wonder what to do. And if they demand that I sing the blues, I reserve the right to pick and choose. Some folks paint with every shade of blue.

Yeah, and I was like, what, a late night thing? And I just recorded on my phone real quick and I was like, no way am I gonna like that as much in the morning as I feel like I like it right now, you know?

Yeah.

But it did, but it did come out. Then the next morning I listened to it and I was like, well, there's some tweaks to be made for sure, but that does feel as good as it did last night. And then one other song that kind of came out of the blue for me was Lifetime.

We stood on the mountaintops, trying not to forget all the old songs that led us there. Never mind the rest. We sang of half-moons and the North Sea, wildflowers and sandy queens. Gave it all to the stones and the trees. Never mind the rest. If you're ready to come back home, darling, you don't gotta ask. He's been gone so long, you never know when a lot of time will fly by.

In the sense that I had written the verses for that, I'm not sure how long ago, years ago, and I was sitting at a Yeah. In the green room at the Shrine in Tulsa, the guys had run back to the hotel and I just didn't feel like getting back in the van. And I pulled out my notebook and I'm flipping through just looking for ideas 'cause we were starting to talk about recording. And I found those verses and the verses felt really flat to me. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna take some blind swings at a chorus idea. And so I would play through the verses and then just kind of let my hands do what they wanted to in terms of chord structure to move it along and just try to like really kick up the vocals and sing in not necessarily a higher octave, but kick the notes up, you know, to try to add some excitement to it. And after about 10 or 15 minutes of that, the chorus came, um, and just totally resurrected that song for me. And the guy— and then it was just like all the material was there at that point because I had the verses already written out there, you know. Uh, so the guys came back from the hotel and I was like, listen, listen what I've got.

Do you write, uh, do you write on mandolin or guitar?

Um, I think everything on this album I've written on the mandolin for sure. I have written some songs on the guitar in the past, um, but my time for, um, fiddling around with other instruments after I had my kid, it kind of went to zero, you know.

Yeah, I bet.

I feel pretty lucky to get mandolin practicing every day before I'm, you know, having He's, he's, he's, he's starting to go to school. Like, he's in, uh, uh, pre-K now and kindergarten next year, so he's starting to go to a more normal schedule. But I was pretty guilty of like, ah, we're just gonna stay home today, you know what I mean? I wouldn't take him to—

Sure, just like, hey man, how'd you like to chill with Dad?

Yeah, but that's changed my mandolin practice from like dedicated X amount of time a day to like 15 and 20 minute spurts, you know? And that, that That ended up with me not getting the guitar out near as much. So yeah, I wrote pretty much everything on mandolin for this album.

Awesome. Uh, you still using your same main axe?

Uh, yeah, yeah. And I still continue to, to love it more and more. I, uh, you know, if I, if I had an extra $20 grand laying around, I'd be first in line for a Gilchrist or something, but I don't, and I don't need it. I still feel— I still feel like I'm not outplaying this instrument. It's got a lot more to give. It's got a lot more headroom for me, I think.

So yeah, and for everybody who might not listen, by the way, he was a guest on an episode prior, which I'll link below. But for those who are not familiar yet, what's your main axe?

Um, it's a 2007, um, Gibson F5G. Uh, yeah, yeah, those are great, man. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a workhorse for sure. It's a tool, not a jewel, and it's starting to see some pretty good wear, but it's all, it's all, it's all wear that I'm proud of. It's not from— I don't have any— I haven't broken off the headstock scroll yet.

Right, right. Nice. Now, are you still— how about your live setup?

Are you—

have you added anything or taken anything away from your live setup?

I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure where I was at when I talked to you last. Right now, yeah, right now I'm using an Alix for my preamp, um, and a Big Sky, uh, for my reverb. Like the old school big, big Sky, you know, it takes up half your pedalboard. And then I'm using a, uh, Compadre compressor, uh, but I don't really run that all the time. That's kind of more like if I'm feeling I can honestly— I kind of use it as a confidence boost if I need it, you know.

Oh, no kidding. Yeah.

Yeah, I much prefer to have the dynamic, the dynamic ability of working without a compressor, you know. Um, but sometimes if it's just a crazy loud situation, I didn't have very much time to warm up, and I know I'm going to be mashing it a little bit, you know, then I'll kick it on for the the first, you know, 5 or 6 songs just to make sure I feel like I'm hitting my licks, you know. And once my confidence gets back up, I'll click it off. Uh, and what else? Uh, oh, just like an MXR, like, analog delay. So I think, I think that's probably all the same as last time I talked to you except for that compressor.

I was gonna say, I think that sounds— aside from the compressor, I think that's what you were using last time too.

Yeah, I, I've never been one to like fiddle around a lot with electronics just because at the beginning, before I was kind of set into that, man, I had bad luck with that. It was, it was like— And there's nothing worse than being on a tour and being the guy who every night there's some issue during soundcheck and it's you, you know what I mean? Like, there's a— and so I was definitely like that for a while, and then Uh, when I landed on this setup, I mean, that just virtually quit happening. And I was just so thankful and so happy with my sound. I was like, oh man, I, I'm just not motivated enough to risk messing that up for myself right now.

Sure. The other thing I find with some of the effects too is like, I love, I love the envelope filter, but like, it seems like once you use it, for me anyway, you know, it's like, well, I can't use it again. Like, I can't But, you know, if I use it for one long solo, if I use it again, it's just kind of like, oh, is this what it is? Exactly. You know, I mean, it's cool and it's fun, and there's definitely people out there who are way better at mixing them subtly and using multi-effects. And just, I don't know, I got my hands full enough with, uh, you know, with just trying to keep it together without it.

So every, you know, right? Yeah, me too. I, I, and I've also, you know, our guitar player Zach and our, uh, banjo player Adams, they, they do like to add and mess with effects a lot. So it's like that, that somebody's doing that in our band, you know what I mean? Like, if, if there's a, if there's a part of the set that calls for it, there's, uh, 2 guys that are more than happy to experiment with their stuff to make it happen. And, uh, that's just as well for me, you know. It gives the effect and gives something different for the crowd, and I get to keep focusing on what I'm doing, you know. Yeah, yeah.

That's the other thing too, is like those guitars and banjos, they have such a wider dynamic range too, so they can use like tremolos and choruses and things that, you know, when you throw on a mandolin, we have no sustain half the time. So half those, those effects, just, you barely notice them.

Exactly. Yeah, I've had that experience too. I tried to add a— I tried to add a wah at one point, and, uh, because I saw— I can't remember who it was, but I was out in Colorado and watched another band, and I don't have— haven't had this experience a lot, but there was a mandolin player using a wah so tastefully that I was like, oh man, that is is awesome. How is he— how is he getting that tone out of it? And I ran home and bought one, and I was so excited, and then threw it on my board, and I could not get my instrument to respond to it almost at all, you know? Uh, and it was definitely, definitely not— I mean, it was, it was having an effect, but it was also losing all the power, uh, to it, you know what I mean?

Totally.

Uh, which mandolin players are obviously always fighting to maintain.

Yeah, yeah, get lost as it is, you know, if you're not chopping.

So— Right, yeah. So it was, it was, it was not, it was not worth the footwork. footprint on the pedalboard basically is how that wound up.

Yeah, I love that. I love the same thought of the footprint on the pedalboard. Such a big deal, man, when you're taking stuff off and you're like, I don't— I can't have this many things.

Exactly. If I have to get a bigger pedalboard, it's going to throw off the whole game of Tetris in the van.

Exactly, exactly. What type of, uh, what type of your stuff had you been listening to as far as You know, trying to influence yourself for the writing of this new album?

Oh man, that's a good question. Uh, I don't know, man. I always like listening to, uh, just to kind of inspire lyricism, I really like listening to, uh, uh, I guess it's Watch House now. Uh, God, he's always just had such an effortless and earnest way about his lyrics, you know, that I find really inspiring.

Dude, he— and it just, it seems like an endless well. It's amazing how, like, how many projects he has out that are, that are all incredible.

You're just like, wow. And I, uh, and I really love lyricists like that, that I, I feel like part of the reason it feels endless is because of the simplicity, you know. It's like if you're able to break down your emotions into such a simple digestible form, I feel like it leaves a lot of room to continue to do so, you know. I think I've been guilty in the past of kind of overriding my ideas. Like so much so that I used to like get into like counting my syllables in lines and like Sure. Like trying to make sure that they matched really well and that my rhyming scheme was— I never diverted from it, you know. It was, uh, I think just because I didn't know any other way. I just thought that people did that. I don't know, maybe it's because I listened to a lot of rap when I was younger. But, uh, I think listening to some other artists who are a little more simple and a little more carefree about it has helped me loosen up in that sense a little bit. Um, so yeah, Watch House. Uh, Andrew, man, he's awesome. Uh, I listened to a lot of Warren Zevon over the last year or so that I found pretty inspiring.

Yeah, he's great too. I just kind of— gosh, I, I did too within the last year, maybe year and a half, and I wish I could remember who. Oh well, it's like a weird— I don't know if anybody will get the reference, but there's a band called The Darkness. I don't know if it was like an old metal band that called—

oh yeah, Under the Darkness.

Yeah. And, um, that guy's got a podcast or like a video podcast and where he just talks, you know, about dissecting different songs he likes. And he was bringing up Warren Zevon and I'm like, ah, you know, I was like, I'll be darned if that album he didn't recommend was great top to bottom, you know.

Oh, for sure. Yeah, if you're on— if you're on a— in a room full of musicians and you bring up Zevon, you'll, you'll hook somebody in a conversation for sure. Uh, I've noticed anyways. Uh, but yeah, and then, yeah, you know, I've also just been trying to listen a lot to our, our friends releasing new music. You know, I, I, uh, I could be pretty bad about like going back to the same old haunts on my Spotify playlist, you know.

Yeah.

Uh, yes, I do too.

And so, and, and sometimes I find it overwhelming to be looking, looking Yeah. Looking for new music, just because I feel like I should, and an easy way out of that for me is listening to my buddies who are cutting new tunes, you know. We've gotten to know, like, for instance, Armchair Boogie pretty well. We love those guys, and they've had a couple releases in the last couple years that are really awesome. And it's just, it's interesting when you've gotten to know someone on a personal level throughout the years And then you get to listen to their new music kind of through that lens, you know? It's pretty cool. Also, I just wanted to mention them because I was so impressed last night was the Fretliners, man. They have some beautiful songs. And I don't know his name, but the guy that sings lead has such a cool voice that fits them so well. It just fits his writing so well. So as far as inspiration goes, I wanted to throw them some credit too because we just I've been lucky enough to play a couple of things with them over the past, um, year and a half or so. We were at Winter Wondergrass last year where they did a, uh, a few sets and I caught all of them and was just unbelievably impressed with their songwriting.

Yeah, their new single's killer.

Uh, I don't know if I've heard their new single. I'm embarrassed now that I was just saying—

Well, you probably heard it live. That's true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh yeah, that's great. I'm super— I'm looking forward to talking with Sam Parks. I think that's his name, right? The mandolin player?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he's great too. What was it like going into, you know, when you go into a new studio like Southern Ground, was it a whole new mic technique too for recording your mandolin as opposed to going into the place and kind of knowing how to already get your sound, or did you stick with what you knew going in?

Um, you know, I, I feel like we— I felt like the, the setup was relatively the same. Um, and, you know, the process, like the actual moments of recording music felt a lot like we were back at home in our, in our hometown studio. Like the— just like this, just like the simple parts of it, like our distance from each other, our separation. You know, we had, uh, me in a booth, the bass player and the guitar player in a common space in the middle, and then the banjo player in a booth, you know, separated by panes of glass. Um, and it just felt like we were sitting there like, oh, this feels like the way we've done before, you know, which was nice. Um, and I, I don't know what mic, what mic they used on my Yeah, mandolin, but I think it was the same. I, I don't know. I just know that when he, he set it up and I played through it once and I was like, yep, that will do, that's perfect.

I'm good.

Yeah, for sure. Uh, so yeah, it was a really, really easy experience in there and pretty inspiring too. Just to have different surroundings anytime is inspiring, you know, and to be able to walk out in front front of the studio and be staring at downtown Nashville, you know, take a walk to the gas station for a coffee or whatever and just get to feel like you're doing it where the big dogs do it, you know what I mean?

Oh yeah, yeah. And again, like, I think— doesn't Zac Brown own that studio? Is that whose it was, whose it is?

He does, yeah. There's a lot of cool Zac Brown memorabilia in there and, uh, cool, uh, cool stuff he's collected over the years. And, uh, I hope he doesn't listen to this, but we had a blast snooping through his shit, really.

Ah, that's great. Well, you know, I'd be stunned if Zac background was listening, but if you are, give me a holler, buddy. Yeah, I'll have him on. He's a good, good player, good musician. Might not play mandolin, but it'd be fun to talk to. Yeah.

Uh, and we, uh, also, you know, we brought, we brought in a lot of musicians for this album, and we've, we've done that in the past, but in the past it's been more like, uh, we had 3 songs that we wanted drums on, so we brought in a drummer that we knew, you know, from home And you had a pretty solid idea of, you know, we'd like, we'd like you to do this. Um, our banjo player is a pretty good, uh, percussionist himself, so he usually was able to give those folks a lot of direction, you know. Uh, but this time it was more like we brought in some friends and gave them a lot more freedom just to take swings at it and see what they could come up with, you know.

Yeah.

And I think that was a huge part of what you were saying, it feeling like it being, you know, stepped up a little bit, for sure. 'Cause those guys were bad to the bone and they put in a lot of hard work on it that really helped fill those songs out a lot. You know, we're just a 4-piece of all like kind of plectrum kind of instruments. So that sound, you know, can be real finicky when you don't have any friction instruments in there to kind of smooth things out and add that layer of character. Texture. Yeah, yeah, I guess.

And too, when you're in the studio, it kind of frees you up to be able to do those sort of things that you might not be able to do, especially not be able to do live, where it's not going to affect— like, you could still have the power of percussion with the instrumentation you guys have, you know what I mean? You already have a kind of a kick and a snare anyway, but, you know, to be able to make that more sonically, to open it up to more people hearing you too, um, I think it's smart and it sounds so good.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was fun. And it's like I think also in the past when it's just been us kind of taking on the burden of all the solos specifically, um, you know, I was talking earlier about how I feel like we've kind of made the, uh, the running times a little more concise on this album. And part of that was it was— we kind of defaulted to always having 2 or 3, almost every one of us taking a solo on every song. And it was a lot easier letting those other guys take some solos. It was easier to step back from that and be like, oh no, that, that, that was perfectly serving the song right now. It doesn't need— because at that point, you know, we had 2 other, uh, musicians in there that were now capable of dropping solos. And it's like, well, we're definitely not gonna have 5 solos on every song, you know what I mean?

Well, not everybody thinks that way. Yeah, I think it's very mature to have that line of You know what I mean? Because when everybody in the band is capable of playing great solos, it's easy to play 5 solos every single song. But, you know, it doesn't always make the listening experience for people the best. So I think that's awesome that you, you guys had the maturity as a band to be like, oh, you know what, this is exactly what we need.

Yeah, for sure. And I think just, you know, years of hearing our own songs, uh, with mainly just us picking on them, especially adding— I mean, the main additions were fiddle and dobro on the string side of it. And, you know, we've always been just— anytime we've been out playing live and had anyone able to sit in on either one of those instruments, it's always such a treat to us, you know? So to have them in the studio and watching them kind of develop the songs and add so much— I mean, we were I mean, there's nothing more fun in the studio, I think, besides, you know, playing the songs with your friends, but sitting in the booth and watching a musician like that just rip over your song, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

You're just watching it get better and better when you're like, I'm not— I don't have to do anything right now but just watch this become so much more than what it was, you know?

Now, I know you've been— I know you've been, um, you know, in bits and pieces you know, with, with, with having a son at home, you know, practicing mandolin. But what have you been working on? Because again, there's— I feel like there's also a growth in your mandolin playing. And I, you know, not just from playing hundreds of gigs, but it sounds like you've been working on maybe some stuff.

Uh, yeah, you know, I'm always trying to work on my, uh, tone. Obviously, that's, that's a never-ending process. Um, I feel like I kind of bounce back and forth between thinking, you know, like, oh, I should really be focusing on just like dexterity, speed, the connection between my right and left hand. And in those moments, I tend to kind of forget about, you know, the little things, just the pressure and the angle of my pick, you know. So especially leading up to a recording session, I'm really trying to focus on and my right hand being just producing a good tone off the string, even on just plucking an open string, you know. I've also kind of noticed that, I'm sure a lot of people deal with this and probably don't love talking about it, but I have a lot of issues with kind of mental blocks on my playing, you know.

Right.

just kind of working on strategies to help me get to where I'm trying to go faster. You know, I've definitely played sets where, like, for instance, last night was a 45-minute set. And in the past, I've had the— I've been like, man, it's gonna take me 4 songs to get settled in. That's gonna be half of that set. Right.

Yeah.

So just like little things like focusing on I, I always used to defer to if I've got 2 hours before I've got to play, I'm feeling a little bit weary from the road and unprepared, then I might be like, I'm just gonna sit down, run crosspicking exercises till I get my speed up, and then I'm just gonna start ripping tunes. But now I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna take a nap for this first hour for sure. And, uh, and then I'm gonna get up, eat a banana, get some beta blockers in me because I'm gonna be a little nervous, and then I'm gonna spend the last last 45 minutes practicing instead. And God, it has served me so well in the studio and on the road to try to just make sure I'm well rested so that I can have, you know, just taking that off, taking that excuse out of my mind. I'm not tired, you know what I mean?

Right.

And also, I've also noticed, and I don't really— this is all kind of me speculating about my own playing, but I feel like over the years I've had such Uh, not necessarily regimented practice from start to finish, but I always generally start the same way, and it's very slow and methodical. Uh, and it's like really about 30 to 40 minutes before I'm playing just loosely and freely, you know, um, on tunes. And I kind of started to get suspicious that maybe that was contributing to the mental block thing. Like, every time I sit down to play, I'm like taking it slow and easy for so long. And so if I haven't had a chance to do that today, then it's— I feel like it's affecting me mentally when I get on stage, you know. So I'm talking in a circle, but I say all that to say I try to, you know, on top of my practice, also pick up my mandolin a few times a day and just jump right into a tune for better or worse, you know, at a, you know, at a moderate tempo that's going to be challenging. And I feel like that has helped a lot, get, get my engine going when I'm on stage a little faster and in the studio, you know, and just helps me build that confidence that I can pick up a cold mandolin and get going. You know, I don't need to have my 40-minute warm-up routine for, for this to absolutely be a performance I'm going to be proud of. You know.

I had, um, Rob Capiletto on, who is, um, I guess most famously in this world known as Billy Strings' guitar teacher now, that Billy Strings reached out to um, after I think he was like recording with like Bela Fleck and Chris Thiele and all those guys, and they were like talking stuff he's like, you know, made no sense to him at all. And he said, I should probably get better at my game. And one of the things he talked about was once you learned the parts you want to learn, just let them rip when you're practicing. But you know, if you've got the— you know, if you have to slow down to figure the fingering out first and figure that out, but once you get comfortable with what you know you have to play, just let her rip. And that's helped me a ton. Like, I've been just like working on Like, I'll hear a solo I like, I'm like, I think I could probably figure that out maybe. And, you know, just try to learn a few bits of it and then get it under my fingers and then just let it rip for a while. And I feel like that's really helped me kind of speed up a little bit quicker and cleaner, you know. I don't know if it works for everybody, but that's my current thing that's been helping me a bunch right now.

Yeah, for sure. I feel like there's just so much about, um, becoming a better musician, um, and especially picking better, that it's just so unique to personality types and, you know, people's, people's individual hands, the way they work. You know, I don't think it's— I don't think there's any kind of one-size-fits-all thing. And I heard one time— oh, sorry, I'm running up and down the stairs in this Airbnb.

No worries.

I used to take lessons with Jake Joller for a while, and I can't remember if I learned this from him in a lesson. I just saw it in an interview or something. But I remember him talking about, you know, just fundamentals about holding your pick, your right hand holding your pick. And he goes through this big spiel about how he thinks it should be done. And then he clarifies at the end, he was like, but also everyone should do what is most comfortable for them. You know, if it— if you're trying, I mean, then there could be a little bit of lag time if you're starting to do something new. But if you're trying to do something for a month and it's just never feeling right, Then, you know, start tweaking it and make sure that it feels comfortable to you, you know, within reason. Don't start holding it with the knuckles on the back of your hand or anything. But like, you know, just make sure it works for you and get comfortable, you know, get comfortable when you're practicing, practice a lot standing up, feel, you know, and just think about being on stage. And is this something that's going to be sustainable for me for 2 hours, you know?

Totally. And everybody's setup's different too. I mean, if you, if you go to somebody's, you know, like somebody, well, out of the, uh, out of the bluegrass world, I would say, like, I used to— well, I still probably do, but Stevie Ray Vaughan, like, that guy's setup was the heaviest strings you can imagine. You can see pictures where you're like, how do you push those strings down? But if you try, you know, but if you tried to play like Stevie Ray Vaughan played on a guitar not like that, it would never work.

Right.

And like, that technique technique, it works. Or like Sam Bush, like Haas, that, you know, I didn't sound like Sam Bush playing Haas. You— he— Sam Bush's technique is perfect for what he does, and you can't watch him play and be like, I want to play just like that, if it doesn't physically work for you. It wouldn't make sense.

That's so funny you say that, because, uh, you know, when I first started getting more serious about playing mandolin, uh, trying to look up for some resources to make sure that I was, you know, working on fundamentals instead of just learning tunes, you know, I got this idea in my head of what it was supposed to like your right hand, especially, you know. And then I got to watching Sam Bush videos. And I was like, well, what the hell?

You know what I mean?

Like, that doesn't make any sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, it took a while. You know, I've seen other players like that since that kind of confused me. But it took me a while to kind of get to kind of realize like, oh, well, you know, Sam Bush doesn't necessarily have to stress out about whether the fundamentals of his right hand are exactly what Beginner's Guide to the Mandolin says, you know what I mean? Exactly. That's just a good frame of reference for someone out of the box. But boy, his right hand looks like— it looks like alien compared to, you know, what my initial idea of what that was supposed to look like.

Oh yeah, and I believe that came from breaking his arm in a van.

Uh, I've heard— I've heard that before. I never knew if that was, uh, folklore or not.

Yeah, gosh, I think he might have even said that on a podcast, but it's been so long since, uh, since I interviewed him. I don't want to repeat something, but yeah, I think it was when they were the first, maybe even the first tour with Newcrest Revival where he's sleeping and his arm kind of fell out of the door when they were shutting it. And, and, uh, anyway though, yeah, when you watch his technique and try to think, yeah, you just— I guess there's only one Sam Bush is what it rolls down to. And if he played standing on his head, it wouldn't matter because he would sound like Sam Bush. And yeah, you know, everybody'd still try it.

Right. Yeah, he's a, he's a pretty inspiring player. We're gonna get to play with him at Hillberry here in a couple weeks. I think he's the set right before us. And then Kitchen Dweller's right after us. But man, anytime you just get to share any space with Sam is awesome.

Yeah.

And we're really looking forward to it. Last time we— I think it was also at Hillberry, but we who had a set later that day. He was teaching a workshop, and our bass player just went up to him after his workshop and was like, hey, you wanna sit in later? And he— I think he said something to the effect of, let me ask my tour manager what our plan is, you know. Uh, but then right when we were going on stage, the tour manager just like leaned over the stage and was like, hey, what key? And we were like, what? And he was like, Sam said what key? And we said F. And he was like, all right, he'll be there. And then that was That was the only communication. And then we were like, well, okay, I guess we're just gonna say his name on the mic now and hope it goes.

Right.

And he was there and ready. And it was kind of a weird tune too. We played, we played the— we played a Levon tune called Washerwoman and played it really like big, big tempo changes, big groove change in the middle. And he came up and just went to town on it. It was so much fun. Uh, so yeah, I'm hoping for a repeat of that in a couple weeks. We'll see.

Well, dude, congratulations on the album, man. It really is killer stuff. And again, like, you know, just, uh, for a band that's been doing as long as you have to— I mean, you know, you had great recordings ahead of time, but you guys really found something special on this recording. And I'm happy for you, man. I'm excited for people to hear it because It's great.

Uh, thank you, man. I, I appreciate it. Like I said, we, we, uh, worked our tail off on it and we are really proud of it. And I just— do you mind real quick if I throw out some, uh, names of people that helped us out on it?

Please do.

I want to give some credit too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so the producer and engineer that I'm referencing is Dan Davis. He— I think he works at, uh, Southern Ground pretty regularly but also plays around town. He was, he was was obviously kind of steering the ship. His second set of hands was, uh, Hank Bachara in the studio. He was really, really awesome too. Um, Tommy Maher from, uh, Fireside played Dobro. Uh, he came and stayed with us in our Airbnb. We had a blast hanging out with Tommy. That was cool. Uh, John Mylander played the fiddle. Um, always a treat to watch him do his thing. Jesus Segreda is, I guess, a local Nashville dude. That was one of the only guys we didn't know ahead of time that Dan, the engineer, kind of brought up to come play all the rhythm on that wild instrumental tune we were talking about. And so thank you, Jesus. And then Tim Coughlin, our manager, and Harry Woosley, our booking agent, spent some time with us in the studio too. And it was just always nice to have some extra friendly faces in there that aren't also arguing about how the song should be played. So anyways, yeah, great, uh, great experience recording the album. We're super proud of it. Thanks for giving it a listen, man.

Oh man, I'll give— I gave it more than one. I'll give it more than one after we talk here too. It'll be one that, uh, that, uh, I'll listen to you just pick some things up from too, man. It's just, yeah, again, it's one of those cool albums where it's, you know, it's got, it's got like layers of things. Like going back and listening to the one tune, the instrumental especially, like I listened to it probably 3 times and each time I picked something new up. And I'm sure there's gonna be some other things on the album too, now listening for it after hearing some of the players on there. That'll, you know, just open another door into the tune that I'm gonna enjoy.

Yeah. And also, congratulations. Didn't you just finish your album as well?

I am getting ready to start. I start— I recorded one. Yeah, I recorded a duet one. And then, yeah, I start in December with Mojo at Dark Shadow Recordings. I'm super excited for that.

Right. Okay. Thank you. I look forward to hearing it, and I hope you have a an awesome experience in the studio. Mojo's bad to the bone.

He is, man. Well, hey, are you gonna be at IBMA this year?

Um, I do not think we're going to be at IBMA this year. Hopefully next year, but it's not on the books for now. So we're gonna enjoy our time here in Nashville for the rest of Americana Fest. We'll be back in Nashville in a couple weeks to play with, uh, Brothers Comatose here. Um, and yeah, Yeah, that's about as close as we'll be to the industry this year.

Yeah, well, thank you so much for doing the podcast again, buddy. I appreciate it.

Hey man, thanks for having me. It's a, it's an awesome thing you do here. It always feels really easy to talk to you, and, um, nice to talk to someone else that likes nerding out about it.

Same here, buddy. All right, thanks so much to Ether for doing the podcast. Thank you so much to you for listening. Have a fantastic week. Cheers, everybody.